For the third (and perhaps not quite the last...) conversation about osmanthus I invited Lisa Fong of Artemisia Natural Perfume to discuss osmanthus from her unique experience of synesthesia of sounds, textures and colours and her creative process - starting from inspiration through raw material selections, to choosing the name.
Please note: this conversation took place before the 2nd Artisan Fragrance Salon in San Francisco.
 
Ayala Moriel/SmellyBlog: How would you describe the scent of osmanthus?

Lisa Fong/Artemisia Perfume: Osmanthus smells like cherry, sugar, honey, and roots.

AM: How fascinating to receive a completely different reaction from each perfumer in relation to the same scent. I've never heard anyone compare osmanthus to cherry or roots. Thank you for sharing!
Have you ever smelled the fresh flowers?

Lisa: No

Ayala: You should try to get in touch with Ineke (note to self: I should invite her to the Osmanthus Conversations!) and see if you can coordinate a visit to her lovely perfumed garden when the osmanthus is in bloom. That was the only time I smelled it in real life - there were only a couple of little clusters, but they smelled amazing! Quite different from the absolute - which I think is more smiler to the dry flowers.

Do you have any scent memories associated with osmanthus? Or memories that are triggered by this note?

Lisa: Cherry cough syrup from my childhood. I think it was called Chericol, and I loved it.

Ayala: What were the main challenges for you when incorporating this note into your perfumes?

Lisa: Osmanthus is a weak oil and gets drowned out easily. I had this problem so I used a lot of osmanthus and used some black current absolute in the base to bring out the fruity notes.

Ayala: That was my challenge with osmanthus as well - it feels as if the more you add, the less of it remains perceptible. I experience black currants as a top note though, with the characteristic sharp fruity edges wearing off very quickly.


Lisa: I thought black current bud was a basenote. I could be wrong, but I like it in this blend. It seems to help push the osmanthus.

Ayala: I think they are classified as such by Poucher - but find that even with volatility rates, the perfumer's perceptions vary - so I totally value your experience and perspective of it.  Have you noticed anything unusual about the behaviour of osmanthus in a blend?

Lisa: It is very complicated and it will tend to disappear.

Ayala: Your osmanthus perfume is themed around apricot, a fruit that often is used to describe the aroma of apricot. How much of the apricotiness is real, and how much is suggested by the name alone?

Lisa: For Saveur de l'Abricot, I used real, natural apricot essence. It was perfect with the osmanthus, which has a fruity quality, but also a sort of animalistic sense. I really like the fuzziness of the apricot and tried to bring that out by adding mango leaf essential oil.

Ayala: Was this an apricot extract, or an apricot specialty? (note to readers: specialty is a compounded accord that is designed to smell like notes that would be difficult to extract in other methods).

Lisa: I thought this was actually from the apricot,but after talking with Miriam of Robertet, I now think it is a blend of natural essences made to imitate apricot.

Ayala: While we're on the topic - what's in a name? What part does the naming play in your creative process?

Lisa: The name is the last and the hardest part for me. I never start with a concept, when I try it goes horribly wrong. I must stick to the scent itself and how I wish to develop it by adding other elements. When I finish, I try to write a description of the scent, and from that find a name that reflects what I think the scent is about. With Ondine, I felt the fragrance was watery and named it after the water nymph. Since then many people do not smell the water idea, but they like it anyway.

Ayala: To me Ondine is like warm water - like hot springs.
What an intricate process - it's almost as if you're going back and reflecting/assessing your creation in order to name it.
In your mind, what is the role of the name, then?

Lisa: I see the name as a way of summarizing the fragrance and what it is I tried to capture in formulating it. I find it is so hard to describe scent in words, it seems like an impossible task. The name is really important and I never know if I choose the right one.

Ayala: How does your background as a musician affect your style of composition?

Lisa: It has everything to do with my subconscious perception of the construction of the scent. Music is both intellectual and emotional. Since I have been a musician for most of my life, it is just a part of who I am. Order and logic are important, but I also like a bit of chaos and will toss in some strange ingredients to make the fragrance more interesting.

Ayala: Do you feel or refer to scents in terms of vibrational frequencies, such as sounds or colours?

Lisa: I always listen to music when I blend, and the music does influence the blend. I listened to Chopin when I made Eros. Now I'm listening to the Smiths, it will be interesting to see what I end up with. I've got some synesthesia and I associate scent with color and texture. For example, mango leaf smells green and fuzzy to me and frankincense seems sparkly with all the colors.

Ayala: What inspired you to create Saveur de l'Abricot? What's the story behind it?

Lisa: Well Ayala, remember when you and I visited Eden Botanicals in Petaluma, last July? They had the most gorgeous osmanthus I had ever smelled. We both bought some even though it was so expensive. I decided to make a perfume from it and when blended with the apricot essence, the idea was formulated.

Ayala: Of course I do! That's what got this whole osmanthus obsession started :-)
And since then I met a couple other perfumers and their osmanthus scents, which lead to a more elaborate series of conversations.
So - have you noticed a great deal of different between osmanthus essences from different sources? Do you have a favourite - and why?  

Lisa: Absolutely. I never cared for osmanthus because I had never smelled one I liked. The ones I had smelled like solvent, but the Eden Botanical osmanthus was a revelation.

Ayala: We're fortunate to have a quality osmanthus, and I hope it will be around for a while. It's so wonderful it feels like you just can't get enough… Almost addictive! And since then I've done a few osmanthus experimentations that worked much better than in the days when I was struggling to create Kinmokusei. Since I have the new absolute, I added carrot seed, tea rose and pomelo tincture, which greatly improved the fruity, effervescent quality of the flower.

Lisa: Your osmanthus blends sound fascinating, you always have such creative ideas. I would love to smell what you create.
Thanks for letting me discuss my fragrance. See you in a few weeks!

Ayala: More like a few days now! Looking forward to it. Thank you so much for sharing your insights on osmanthus and the creative process behind Saveur de l'Abricot!

In the second conversation in our Osmanthus Series, I invited Nikki Sherritt to join the conversation. Candlemaker for Gabriel's Aunt where she creates naturally perfumed soy wax candles; perfumer in her newly launched Rebel & Mercury natural perfumes line - and an all-around wonderful lady with whom I had the pleasure to work for many years. We collaborated on several candles for under my brand, hosted events together, and participated at the 1st Artisan Fragrance Salon in San Francisco in July 2012. We initially met when Nikki drove up to Vancouver for a brief day for a private lesson and consultation way back when. We immediately "clicked" and I was so impressed with her candles that just had to commission her to handcraft a collection of them for me. Since the very beginning of our interaction and working together, we both felt that we have similar aesthetics and a similar passionate attitude about our work, being almost overly enthusiastic about it - and being quite proud about our self-taught knowledge in our areas of expertise.

In everything that Nikki does, there is a sense of free-spirit, innovation, and an unpretentious commitment to purity, independence and quality. This conversation will let you in to Nikki's experience of working with osmanthus in general, and her creative process behind her new perfume, Osmanthus Red and her other osmanthus prominent perfume, Cerise en Cocoa for her perfume line, Rebel & Mercury.

Ayala Moriel/SmellyBlog: How would you describe the scent of osmanthus?

Nikki Sherritt (Rebel & Mercury/Gabriel's Aunt): Mostly, for me it is like Violet meets Blackberry jam. I get this slightly powdery, sugary sweetness that is just too good to not use.

Ayala: Time and again I'm surprised at the varied responses to osmanthus. Although we seem to all find fruity notes there - they are all quite different. So far we had apricot, peach, cherry and plum - and now also blackberry!

Nikki: I am so surprised at how time and time again I get a powdery note from it. I love reading other perfumer's or perfumistas descriptions of notes or perfumes. We all get different nuances!

Ayala: Have you ever smelled the fresh flowers?

Nikki: Sadly, no, just the dried flowers. I have had my fair share of Osmanthus Tea too. I have always loved this delicate tea and how it just has hints of the absolute. Adding some raw honey to that tea is one of my favorite treats.

Ayala: You are fortunate! It took me eons to find osmanthus tea in Vancouver - let alone served in restaurants. Shaktea is the only tea lounge that serves it plain. And for years I was searching for it in traditional Chinese tea shops - but without the proper Chinese name for it, it was pretty futile… It wasn't until a friend of mine who speaks fluent Cantonese and Mandarin gave me a caddy of dried flowers that I was able to enjoy it in its pure form.

Nikki: Every time we go out for Vietnamese or Pho here in Seattle, it is the house tea served (very lucky). Although, they love to put lots of sugar in it. I thought that the absolute would be more like Rhododendron in scent from drinking the tea, but it was so much more! 

Ayala: Do you have any scent memories associated with osmanthus? Or memories that are triggered by this note? 

Nikki: For me, Osmanthus is a more recent discovery (the absolute anyway). I have had the tea many times since I moved to Seattle 7 years ago (it is prevalent in the Vietnamese restaurants here) and always had a bit of a fascination with it. When I finally got my hands on my first absolute, I knew that I had to create a perfume that would feature it.

Ayala: Same for me - it's a relatively new experience - a note I would have had no "relationship" with if it wasn't for my perfumery work and exposure to it. I was on a big hunt for florals early on in my learning stages to become a perfumer. Osmanthus was one of those elusive, exotic names that I had no idea what to expect before smelling it. The first time I smelled it was in a dilution in a tea shop, of all places (they had quite an impressive collection of floral absolutes in their "aromatherapy" collection - way back in the early 2000's when aromatherapy was very hip). It was very faint, as it was diluted in jojoba oil, and I was under impressed. Fortunately, however - my first purchase of it was from Eden Botanicals (years ago) and was a good quality one (though not nearly as good as the one they carry now). 

Nikki: It's funny how so many of us have just (fairly) recently stumbled across this or found out it's true potential. I, like you, knew I wanted this fruity floral note added to my library. Little did I know I would become a bit obsessed! I have also had the pleasure of using Eden's absolute of Osmanthus (the one I use in Osmanthus Red) and it is truly gorgeous. 

Ayala: What were the main challenges for you when incorporating this note into your perfumes?

Nikki: I knew that it was a very dominant note with a distinctive scent so I wanted to feature it without making it an "Osmanthus" perfume or soliflore type. I loved that mixes with things like Rose and other florals, it added such a gorgeous, deep berry/powdery aspect. My goal was to use it to create an idea: like the cherry cordial note of Cerise en Cocoa.

Ayala: Have you noticed anything unusual about the behaviour of osmanthus in a blend?

Nikki: For me, Osmanthus goes very, almost cough-syrupy, on me plus the drier side comes out towards the end. Of course, depending on what you blend it with, it can do one of the other more. 

Ayala: How do you evaluate a new raw material like this? Do you wear it on your skin in dilution first without any other notes mixed in? Or just use scent strips? Contrary to the classic way of studying raw materials, I find that I learn the most out of blending them intuitively with other materials. It's not very systematic (and not a good example for my students) but it's how I work the best and come up with the best ideas.

Nikki: Ayala, I don't know if I picked that technique up from you via osmosis, but that is how I have always done things. Only when I get a new aromatic do I put it on a scent strip or my skin. After that, I know the character of it and what it might bring to the table paired with something else. Again, I sort of visualize combinations so I don't stop to evaluate one note time and time again. 

Ayala: I am pretty sure you had that technique before you met me - I smelled it in the very first perfumes and candles you showed me when we first met. You have a knack for pairing together very strong-willed notes. In Osmanthus Red, there are both tagetes (marigold and osmanthus - none an easy note to work with on their own; and definitely not together. How did you come up with this combination? Can you lead us through your train of thoughts while you blend and design your scents? 

Nikki: I have noticed that sometimes I have a color palette in my head when I got to blend something new. With Osmanthus Red, I kept seeing rich, oranges, reds, ambery/golden types of colors in my head. I kept reaching for things that either reminded me of those colors because of the color of their flowers, or just made me feel that way. Marigold was a way to add some sweet, herbal richness to the blend. Something different and that added a honeyed sweetness without making it a sweet perfume.

Ayala: Do you ever wake up with the feeling of "I don't know what to wear" or "I don't have that in my perfume closet" and just make it? That's how I come up with most of my perfumes!

Nikki: With many of my blends, I wake up with the idea or just get inspired by a new essence and know what I want to do to feature that note. Some are stories I want to tell, some are just a way to show off my favorite essences.

Ayala: It's interesting that you saw red and golden colours with osmanthus. For me osmanthus was initially more green and tea like; and it wasn't till I was deep in the making of Kinmokusei, that the golds crept in - with the wild orange. It really made me think of "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind", and I would have called it that way if there was only enough room on the label…I find the colour association very powerful and helpful when composing. And it's not surprising - colours and emotions are very strongly linked together! 

Nikki: I love that you wanted to name a perfume that! I have found myself getting ready to go somewhere and thinking "I want to smell like like this". Then, these notes will pop in my head and I will immediately go to my perfume table and put things together. I am constantly thinking of the perfect perfume for me and that is also how so many of mine start (like you). I guess that is what makes them your own, but then they take on a whole new life!

Ayala: Your osmanthus perfume is themed around a colour. Where did you get the inspiration? Do you "see" notes in colours? How did you interpret the colour into the formula? How do you "paint" with scent?

Nikki: I touched on this above a little, but Osmanthus Red was an extension of how I use/get inspired by colors when reaching for essences. This blend had started out as a Ginger/Frankincense blend, but it was calling out for some jammy notes and then, with the addition of more and various types of Ginger and Cedarwood, it was clear it was going to be a slightly spicy robust osmanthus blend. I tried to figure out a name for a long time, then realized that sense of color is what I wanted to convey, so Osmanthus Red was it!

Ayala: Fascinating turn of events!

Nikki: This perfume took many turns! Yes, it amazes me how a perfume can start with one idea and move into something so different at the end. Love that!!

Ayala: Have you noticed a great deal of different between osmanthus essences from different sources? Do you have a favourite - and why? 

Nikki: I have noticed some slight variations. I have 2 that I use. The more powdery/violet/jammy one is the one I use in Cerise en Cocoa and I have another rich, jasmine-y/jammy one with slight licorice notes that I use for Osmanthus Red. They both are the same distillation, but from different suppliers. Just subtle differences. I don't prefer one over the other. They both are lovely. I had the chance to smell someone's tincture of osmanthus and it was gorgeous. That is my next goal, to get my hands on that. :)

Ayala: Osmanthus tincture would be a brilliant idea! I have a feeling it will lend itself beautifully for an alcohol infusion. I think the powdery one is perhaps more high on the ionones - and more subtle and difficult to work with, in my humble opinion. Did you find one easier to work with over the other?

Nikki: Ah! There are so many perfumers who create such beautiful tinctures; an area I am getting into more and more. I would love to have this as a tincture! The 2 I have were equally as easy with which to work. They just had subtle differences. I have finally reached a point where I want a many varieties of an essence as possible. I am sure every perfumer gets to that point, which is why it can be difficult for any of us to make money! :)

Ayala: Thank you so much for your time and your insightful answers! 

Nikki: Ayala, thank you for doing this!!! I love this idea of a virtual conversation!!!!!!

Tune in to SmellyBlog in a few days to read my reviews of Osmanthus Red and Cerise en Cocoa, which I sadly left behind on my trip to San Francisco's 2nd Annual Artisan Fragrance Salon. Fortunately, I have packed some dried osmanthus flowers and I'll be thinking of Nikki every time I brew this tea. 
 

What you're about to read is the first in a series of several interviews or conversations with 3 perfumers about the wonders of osmanthus and their experience working with this beautiful and rare raw material. I hope that you will enjoy the insight into other perfumers' work with the same special material, and if you have any other questions, feel free to post them in the comments below and and converse with these talented perfumers over SmellyBlog, and the first "guest" is Charna Ethier from Providence Perfume Co, a natural perfumer from Providence, Rhode Island.


Ayala Moriel/SmellyBlog:
Thank you for participating in my osmanthus series on SmellyBlog!

Charna Ethier/Providence Perfume Co.: Thank you for allowing me to participate. I'm excited to be a part of your osmanthus series!

Ayala: How would you describe the scent of osmanthus?

Charna: I would describe the scent of osmanthus as fruity, leathery, slightly smokey, sweet, floral and narcotic.  Osmanthus doesn't smell like any other essence and is distinct and unique.

Ayala: Interesting that you say plum! I never really thought of osmanthus this way before. Femme smells like osmanthus to me, yet it is not listed as a note anywhere, while plum is.

Charna: Femme does smell like osmanthus! 


Ayala: Have you ever smelled the fresh flowers?

Charna: Sadly, I've never had the chance to smell the real flowers.

Ayala: You owe it to yourself! A trip to the south, perhaps? :-)

Charna: I once had a confusing conversation with a student over the phone about the fresh flowers.  She lived in Georgia and she kept asking me about tincturing "tea olive."  She wanted to know how to create a tea olive tincture and told me that tea olive grew wild everywhere in the South.  I was confused and told her I wasn't sure what tea olive was, but I was pretty sure it didn't grow wild in my cold climate.  She kept describing the flowers to me in detail, and the aroma and still I had no idea what flower she was talking about.  She called me again a week later and explained she discovered that tea olive was what we chilly "Yankees" called osmanthus.  She has a great sense of humour.

Ayala: Confusing indeed! For me, growing up in the Middle East - when talking about "olives" I rarely think of their flowers, and the association is more “savoury” than “sweet”.  So the synonym “sweet olive” sounds a bit out of place. 
Do you have any scent memories associated with the scent of osmanthus? Or memories that are triggered by this note?

Charna: For some reason, the aroma of osmanthus often reminds me of plum wine, ume -which in turn reminds me of an old boyfriend who used to buy me plum wine.  He was much too old for me, and I think he though all young women in their 20's liked to drink sweet things.


Ayala: Mmm, ume… I love Japanese plum wine, but then I probably have an 8-year old taste in alcoholic beverages!… I truly adore ume - their scent is what inspired my Hanami perfume even more than sakura (cherry blossoms). Have you ever had the Japanese sour plum condiments? They are so peculiar tasting!

What were the main challenges for you when incorporating this note into your perfumes?

Charna: I find osmanthus tricky to work with.  It's an essence that doesn't like to play well with others, it asserts itself and likes to play the starring role.  I made a conscious decision to let osmanthus be the star of my perfume Osmanthus Oolong and built the fragrance around osmanthus.


Ayala: To me, osmanthus had the opposite challenge: it seemed to disappear the more I put of it. But then, my composition relied heavily on osmanthus absolute being the only flower there. The others were added in only minuscule amounts, so it remained very muted. Projection does not seem to be a strong point - and it could also be something to do with the ionones playing tricks on our olfactory bulbs.

But you managed - in what seems effortlessly - to turn osmanthus into a star!
"Osmanthus" and "Oolong" - two of my favourite teas! Not surprisingly, I've also fallen hard for your creation! What was your inspiration? Is there a story to be told about Osmanthus Oolong?  



Charna: Thank you Ayala!  Osmanthus Oolong was one of my original fragrances, and it was a concept I had been thinking about for a long time.  At night, as I was falling asleep I remember piecing parts of the formula together in my head for months.  Imagining how the yuzu might freshen the top notes, determining if an amber base would push the fragrance too far to the sweet side, thinking of how the astringency of the black tea may balance the amber.  I'm pleased that you like it.  I've found over the years that Osmanthus Oolong is very polarizing fragrance.  People seem to love it or . . . not (smile.)

Ayala: You now not only answered my question, but also made me feel just a tiny bit more normal - not being the only one who does perfume problem solving while falling asleep… The solution sometimes just comes to you this way more at ease, like a meditation.

Your osmanthus perfume is tea themed, yet the result I found to be very animalic, and with a surprising lasting power. I find that osmanthus to be a very challenging raw material in that aspect: it is difficult to make it long lasting; and increasing the concentration strangely diminishes its presence. How did you overcome this technical challenge? And what other challenges did you notice when working with osmanthus absolute?

Charna: I think the animalic aroma stems from the indole in the jasmine blending with the leathery note in the osmanthus.  As I mentioned before, I find osmanthus challenging to work with.  I had hoped by incorporating the lemony aglaia, the sharp astringent black and green teas and bergamot I could balance the sweet, sometimes cloying nature osmanthus can possess.  What I guess I'm saying is there needs to be a lot of balance when working with osmanthus!

Ayala: You have achieved this balance so well. The red rooibos tea truly brings out the fruity aspect; yet it is not too sweet. And most importantly - it projects very well for such a delicate tea-inspired perfume.

Charna: I feel that when blending with osmanthus, one must decide if they wish to highlight the flower's floral note, it's leather note, or it's fruity note.  One of the three elements as they are so distinct.

Ayala: Excellent point! Containing one's excitement are a great challenge to the perfumer, which can easy lead to lack of direction. Having a focus is key, because the natural raw materials are so complex, our job is often like a photographer's attempt to soften the background and channel our attention to the photograph's subject.

Charna: Regarding the longevity of Osmanthus Oolong . . . thank you for noticing!  I take great pride in striving to create a longer lasting natural perfume.  One of the methods I utilized with Osmanthus Oolong tincturing dried apricots and peaches in the base alcohol.  The alcohol becomes imbued with the fruity aroma, a perfect foil to highlight the peach-like aroma osmanthus possesses.  In addition the fruit tinctured alcohol contains natural sugars from the fruit which act as a humectant slowing the evaporation rate of the perfume off the skin.

Ayala: That's fascinating about the fruit sugars - I had no idea! I worked with natural fruit extracts (designed for food, just like vanilla extract or almond essence) found their stickiness to be a disadvantage. It's both inspiring and encouraging to smell such results, so I will give it a try.

Have you noticed a great deal of different between osmanthus essences from different sources? Do you have a favourite - and why? 
 


Charna: This is an interesting question.  Normally, I find vast differences in essences from different sources.  I must admit when sourcing osmanthus absolute, the differences were more subtle, shades of grey if you will.  One was thinner, less sweet.  One was smokier.  Maybe because osmathus is such a distinct aroma I detected more subtle differences.  I recently purchased osmanthus from Eden Botanicals and really liked the quality.  I found it interesting that the osmanthus from Eden smelled smokier and darker in the bottle than it does on the skin.  The smokey note disappeared very quickly, and the sweet, floral quality shone.  I enjoyed it.

Ayala: Yes, the osmanthus from Eden is exceptional, and even surpasses the one they used to carry a few years back. Osmanthus is not widely grown so we're not privileged enough to have several sources as with other florals (rose, jasmine, etc.). I'm ashamed to admit that I've never smelled aglaia flowers. Can you describe their scent?

Charna: I LOVE aglaia.  I only wish their fresh, lemony floral aroma were stronger.  It's very difficult to make aglaia a prevalent note in a perfume, but I found the aglaia and jasmine lightened the osmanthus in the heart notes of Osmanthus Oolong.


Ayala: Now I'm even more intrigued!
Which types of tea essences did you use in Osmanthus Oolong?

Charna: I used a handcrafted tincture of black tea (hence the dark color of the perfume), green tea absolute and rooibos (red) tea absolute.  The fruity plum notes in the rooibos accentuated the other fruit notes in the perfume.

Ayala: Wonderful choices, and the tea-like quality really comes across - although in a rather bold and daring way. Thank you so much for creating such an outstanding osmanthus perfume, and for sharing your creative process and thoughts!

Charna: Thank you for allowing me to participate, Ayala!

Now, proceed to read my impressions/review of Providence Perfume Co's Osmanthus Oolong!